HonestlyFrum and Orthonomics have recently posted about or had comments posted about yeshiva registration fees. Specifically, it seems that RYNJ (and I doubt they're the only yeshiva to engage in this practice), has sent out a bill to parents to re-register their children for the 2010-2011 school year without also providing how much tuition for the 2010-2011 school year will cost.
I am unsure if RYNJ or other yeshivas have engaged in this practice in the past, but the registration fees seem to be identical to what they were last year (Last year's rates were $950 by 3/13/09, $1100 by 7/1/09, and $1350 thereafter). Additionally, if the historical analysis of JKHA tuition is any indication, registration fees remain remarkably stable from year to year. As HonestlyFrum has pointed out, they are likely set at their relatively high rates to discourage parents from shopping around and play off of the fear that some parents may have that if they do not pay the fee immediately they will a) have to pay a higher non-early bird fee later or b) be locked out of the school as the yeshiva may choose to give away their slot.
In all honesty, I'm not as bothered by this as I thought I would be. It's no secret what tuition is going to be this coming year. It will be at least as much as tuition was last year and, most likely, will be higher. My bet is the increase will be slightly less than average. In other words, I expect most yeshivas to increase 3% or so as opposed to 7% or so. In all likelihood this lesser increase is a one-time only affair and standard increases will follow in coming years.
I guess my acceptance of this practice has more to do with parental attitudes than feeling this is the upright and correct way for yeshivas to operate. In fact, I think the practice stinks and is just another form of collusion the schools engage in to lower their risk exposure and keep prices high. My attitude stems from a sense of cynicism towards the parents that seem to be complaining the loudest. Orthonomics put it more kindly, but I think parents should "put up or shut up." Complaining on these blogs is nice and cathartic, but it doesn't solve anything. The very least you can do is call up the school your children attend and speak to the administrators. Reading the blogs and the numerous comments I don't think I have seen more than a handful of people indicate any concrete action they have taken - not even a phone call let alone more "drastic" measures such as JFS (which is really about as turn-key a solution as you can get to the yeshiva crisis).
I don't understand why those complaining expect the yeshivas to turn around and say "What? Parents are upset? They think tuition is too high? We had no idea anyone felt this way! Assemble the board immediately, we have to make real changes right away!" Or why people think lay leaders and rabbis will somehow save the day. I have the utmost respect for Rabbi Glickman and the sentiments he conveyed, but sympathy is not a solution.
So, I urge parents to make your own change. Vote with your wallet. I am just here to post information and facilitate discussion on the issues. I don't have children yet. This blog, among other things, is a way for me to think through the yeshiva issue and plan adequately before it's too late, so to speak. Those of you "in the parsha" don't have that luxury.
I know this post has been a bit rambling, but I'd like to hear why so much anger has resulted in such little action.
Monday, February 8, 2010
Wednesday, February 3, 2010
Tuition 2009-2010 (Part 2)
Edits in red.
Just a brief update given some comments in the previous 2009-2010 yeshiva tuition post. Tuition is calculated in the same manner as the previous post.
Tuition for Jewish Foundation School: $6,500 (no busing), $7,500 (local busing) and $8,500 (Bergen County busing).
Tuition for Yeshiva University High School for Boys: $21,790 (9-12).
Notes:
1) Tuition for RYNJ is confirmed and accurate.
2) Tuition for Noam is unconfirmed.
3) Tuition for JFS is semi-confirmed (no official confirmation, but numbers seem correct).
Also, it was asked in the previous thread whether the HAFTR building fund of $1,500 is yearly or one time only. I admit I was too hasty to say it was one time only. It is unclear at best, and is likely a yearly obligation. I invite someone in the know to clarify the issue. HAFTR tuition can be found online here.
Just a brief update given some comments in the previous 2009-2010 yeshiva tuition post. Tuition is calculated in the same manner as the previous post.
| RYNJ | Noam | ||
| Pre-K | $10,050 | $13,775 | |
| K | $12,255 | $14,725 | |
| 1st | $12,255 | $14,725 | |
| 2nd | $12,255 | $14,725 | |
| 3rd | $12,255 | $14,725 | |
| 4th | $12,255 | $14,725 | |
| 5th | $12,255 | $14,725 | |
| 6th | $13,425 | $14,725 | |
| 7th | $13,425 | $14,725 | |
| 8th | $13,425 | TBD | |
| Family (Yearly) | $1,625 | $1,200 | |
| Family (Once) | $8,000 | $7,000 |
Tuition for Jewish Foundation School: $6,500 (no busing), $7,500 (local busing) and $8,500 (Bergen County busing).
Tuition for Yeshiva University High School for Boys: $21,790 (9-12).
Notes:
1) Tuition for RYNJ is confirmed and accurate.
2) Tuition for Noam is unconfirmed.
3) Tuition for JFS is semi-confirmed (no official confirmation, but numbers seem correct).
Also, it was asked in the previous thread whether the HAFTR building fund of $1,500 is yearly or one time only. I admit I was too hasty to say it was one time only. It is unclear at best, and is likely a yearly obligation. I invite someone in the know to clarify the issue. HAFTR tuition can be found online here.
Thursday, January 28, 2010
Understanding The Goals Of Yeshiva Education
In a previous post, I listed what I felt were the goals of the Modern Orthodox yeshiva system. I believe that thinking about and really considering these goals would help our community understand several things:
1) How well are our yeshivas meeting these goals?
2) If we need to make budget cuts which will impact the achievement of these goals, which goals are less important such that making these cuts is preferable over other cuts?
3) In considering alternatives to the current yeshiva model, what goals are better met and what goals are not met as well or at all?
Below, I regrouped these goals under headings. I placed the headings in order from what I feel (for me) is the most important category of goals to the least important category of goals. Within each heading, I then placed the goals in order from most important to least important (to me). Obviously there are cases where a goal from a first category is deemed more important than a goal from a second category even if the first category as a whole is less important than the second category as a whole. Such is life. This is meant to be broad and hopefully we can discuss particulars in the comments.
As you continue reading, consider how you would group these goals or whether you feel any goals are missing or should not be goals at all. Also consider how you would separate goals into "core" and "extra." Finally, how would you rank the goals within each heading? Feel free to place your ordering in the comments.
I will hopefully explain my ordering a bit in the comments - stay tuned.
This goes to the heart of the matter of what we expect from our yeshivas, whether they are delivering, and how we view alternatives.
Core Religious Continuity Goals
36) Ensure children will not intermarry
2) Ensure that children remain frum
7) Make frumkeit (and Judaism) interesting and engaging
35) Separate children from non-Jews
Day To Day Religious Skills Goals
11) Teach (and teach by example) midot and how a Jew should behave
10) Teach that we should love all Jews regardless of affiliation or practice
6) Teach davening skills and the meaning of the prayers
5) Teach practical halacha
16) Learn to bench and say brachot
37) Ensure proper separation of the sexes (even if the school is co-ed)
Core Secular Educational Goals
19) Provide secular English studies
31) Provide excellent math and science education
33) Teach strong English language and grammar skills
32) Provide excellent American and world history and social studies education
34) Educate children so they are well-versed in English literature
Post-Yeshiva Secular Educational goals
20) Ensure students earn top SAT scores
21) Ensure a large percentage of kids go Ivy League or equivalent universities
Core Religious Educational Goals
1) Provide religious Judaic studies
12) Impart a memorable and lasting body of Torah knowledge
13) Learn significant portions of Torah, Neviim, and Ketuvim
17) Be immersed in a Jewish environment
9) Create a love of Israel
15) Become familiar with "big name" commentaries and "famous" interpretations
14) Become versed in gemara learning
"Extra" Religious Educational Goals
4) Teach Hebrew language skills
3) Teach HOW to learn
18) Learn Jewish history
"Extra" Religious Continuity Goals
8) Inspire children to be active in Jewish life
39) Create bonds with rabbis and classmates that last a lifetime
40) Inspire children to consider aliyah when older
38) Help create a "yeshiva culture" that unites frum Jews
"Extra" Secular Educational Goals
28) Have accredited teachers with advanced degrees in their field
24) Provide a large number of AP courses
Post-Yeshiva Religious Educational Goals
22) Ensure a large percentage of kids go to YU or Stern
23) Ensure a large percentage of kids go to extra yeshiva study in Israel
Miscellaneous Goals
25) Provide a large number of extracurricular groups and activities
27) Have top-notch science labs
29) Have large gyms and other sports and exercise related fields, courts, tracks, etc.
30) Have kosher cafeterias and/or lunch programs
26) Have top-notch computer labs
1) How well are our yeshivas meeting these goals?
2) If we need to make budget cuts which will impact the achievement of these goals, which goals are less important such that making these cuts is preferable over other cuts?
3) In considering alternatives to the current yeshiva model, what goals are better met and what goals are not met as well or at all?
Below, I regrouped these goals under headings. I placed the headings in order from what I feel (for me) is the most important category of goals to the least important category of goals. Within each heading, I then placed the goals in order from most important to least important (to me). Obviously there are cases where a goal from a first category is deemed more important than a goal from a second category even if the first category as a whole is less important than the second category as a whole. Such is life. This is meant to be broad and hopefully we can discuss particulars in the comments.
As you continue reading, consider how you would group these goals or whether you feel any goals are missing or should not be goals at all. Also consider how you would separate goals into "core" and "extra." Finally, how would you rank the goals within each heading? Feel free to place your ordering in the comments.
I will hopefully explain my ordering a bit in the comments - stay tuned.
This goes to the heart of the matter of what we expect from our yeshivas, whether they are delivering, and how we view alternatives.
Core Religious Continuity Goals
36) Ensure children will not intermarry
2) Ensure that children remain frum
7) Make frumkeit (and Judaism) interesting and engaging
35) Separate children from non-Jews
Day To Day Religious Skills Goals
11) Teach (and teach by example) midot and how a Jew should behave
10) Teach that we should love all Jews regardless of affiliation or practice
6) Teach davening skills and the meaning of the prayers
5) Teach practical halacha
16) Learn to bench and say brachot
37) Ensure proper separation of the sexes (even if the school is co-ed)
Core Secular Educational Goals
19) Provide secular English studies
31) Provide excellent math and science education
33) Teach strong English language and grammar skills
32) Provide excellent American and world history and social studies education
34) Educate children so they are well-versed in English literature
Post-Yeshiva Secular Educational goals
20) Ensure students earn top SAT scores
21) Ensure a large percentage of kids go Ivy League or equivalent universities
Core Religious Educational Goals
1) Provide religious Judaic studies
12) Impart a memorable and lasting body of Torah knowledge
13) Learn significant portions of Torah, Neviim, and Ketuvim
17) Be immersed in a Jewish environment
9) Create a love of Israel
15) Become familiar with "big name" commentaries and "famous" interpretations
14) Become versed in gemara learning
"Extra" Religious Educational Goals
4) Teach Hebrew language skills
3) Teach HOW to learn
18) Learn Jewish history
"Extra" Religious Continuity Goals
8) Inspire children to be active in Jewish life
39) Create bonds with rabbis and classmates that last a lifetime
40) Inspire children to consider aliyah when older
38) Help create a "yeshiva culture" that unites frum Jews
"Extra" Secular Educational Goals
28) Have accredited teachers with advanced degrees in their field
24) Provide a large number of AP courses
Post-Yeshiva Religious Educational Goals
22) Ensure a large percentage of kids go to YU or Stern
23) Ensure a large percentage of kids go to extra yeshiva study in Israel
Miscellaneous Goals
25) Provide a large number of extracurricular groups and activities
27) Have top-notch science labs
29) Have large gyms and other sports and exercise related fields, courts, tracks, etc.
30) Have kosher cafeterias and/or lunch programs
26) Have top-notch computer labs
Wednesday, January 27, 2010
Moving Out
With apologies to Billy Joel:
Avraham works in the firm's top floor
Savin his pennies for YNJ
Ima Liora left a note on the door
She said "Avrumy move out of Bergen County"
Ah but working too hard can be a
A pain in the neck, eck, eck, eck, eck, eck
You ought-a know by now
Who needs a house out in Teaneck?
Is that all you get for your money?
And it seems such a waste of time
If that's what it's all about
Ima if that's movin up then I'm movin out...
In the comments of the previous post, PayingParent noted he is moving out of Bergen County:
"We are actually making the choice to move to Long Island after witnessing the exorbitant costs of living in Bergen county. Comparing yeshiva bills for our 2 children, we'll be spending about $10,000 less per year by switching to HALB. That is in addition to the savings on transportation which is pretty much a necessity for 2 full time working parents. While I understand that transportation is free in Teaneck, the taxes are higher."
Anonymous then chipped in he was considering moving as well because:
"1) real estate taxes are lower in 5 towns than BC; 2) access to low cost college in NY State; 3) free bussing; 4) stronger and more orthodoxly diverse jewish community"
From my perspective, saving a few grand on real estate taxes isn't enough to warrant moving. I just don't think it makes that much of a dent in the bottom line. On the other hand, saving significant money every year on tuition may be a good reason to move - I'm just not sure if $10,000 a year is enough. As ProfK pointed out, JFS is significantly cheaper. Going from Bergen County schools to JFS for 4 kids can save around $20K-$30K per year.
For my wife and I who recently purchased a house and don't yet have kids, I would think selling the house and moving would be down near the bottom of the list of options. So, for those considering moving how do you weigh the pros and cons? Are factors other than just tuition/finances involved?
I'm also curious about what towns do or do not offer free busing to students as part of your taxes.
Avraham works in the firm's top floor
Savin his pennies for YNJ
Ima Liora left a note on the door
She said "Avrumy move out of Bergen County"
Ah but working too hard can be a
A pain in the neck, eck, eck, eck, eck, eck
You ought-a know by now
Who needs a house out in Teaneck?
Is that all you get for your money?
And it seems such a waste of time
If that's what it's all about
Ima if that's movin up then I'm movin out...
In the comments of the previous post, PayingParent noted he is moving out of Bergen County:
"We are actually making the choice to move to Long Island after witnessing the exorbitant costs of living in Bergen county. Comparing yeshiva bills for our 2 children, we'll be spending about $10,000 less per year by switching to HALB. That is in addition to the savings on transportation which is pretty much a necessity for 2 full time working parents. While I understand that transportation is free in Teaneck, the taxes are higher."
Anonymous then chipped in he was considering moving as well because:
"1) real estate taxes are lower in 5 towns than BC; 2) access to low cost college in NY State; 3) free bussing; 4) stronger and more orthodoxly diverse jewish community"
From my perspective, saving a few grand on real estate taxes isn't enough to warrant moving. I just don't think it makes that much of a dent in the bottom line. On the other hand, saving significant money every year on tuition may be a good reason to move - I'm just not sure if $10,000 a year is enough. As ProfK pointed out, JFS is significantly cheaper. Going from Bergen County schools to JFS for 4 kids can save around $20K-$30K per year.
For my wife and I who recently purchased a house and don't yet have kids, I would think selling the house and moving would be down near the bottom of the list of options. So, for those considering moving how do you weigh the pros and cons? Are factors other than just tuition/finances involved?
I'm also curious about what towns do or do not offer free busing to students as part of your taxes.
Tuesday, January 19, 2010
Tuition At Various Yeshivas (2009-2010)
Been a bit busy at work, but here's a quick post comparing tuition costs at various yeshivas in the tri-state area. If you believe I missed a yeshiva AND that yeshiva provides it's tuition data online (or you have a copy you can send to me), please email me or indicate such in the comments.
A few notes: I have combined all tuition and fees for each grade so that it's as much of an "apples to apples" comparison as possible. I have also included the annual per family annual charges and the one time only per family charges. Some of the schools have difficult to interpret information - I did my best.
BPY = Ben Porat Yosef; Grades 6-8 are To Be Determined, as the school does not go up that high yet. For JEC, "$750 / $300" = there is an annual obligation of $750 per family for 4 years and $300 per family for every subsequent year. M. Aaron = Moshe Aaron.
What I found most interesting is that there isn't that much of a difference (in most cases) in price between yeshivas regardless of how "fancy" the facilities supposedly are, how "wealthy" the communities supposedly are, or how "superior" the education supposedly is. Though the biggest differences appear for high school; elementary school is pretty similar across the board.
A few notes: I have combined all tuition and fees for each grade so that it's as much of an "apples to apples" comparison as possible. I have also included the annual per family annual charges and the one time only per family charges. Some of the schools have difficult to interpret information - I did my best.
BPY = Ben Porat Yosef; Grades 6-8 are To Be Determined, as the school does not go up that high yet. For JEC, "$750 / $300" = there is an annual obligation of $750 per family for 4 years and $300 per family for every subsequent year. M. Aaron = Moshe Aaron.
| BPY | HAFTR | HALB | JEC | JKHA | Moriah | Yavneh | |||||||
| Pre-K | $13,100 | $6,175 | $7,500 | $8,525 | $11,225 | $12,420 | $12,250 | ||||||
| K | $14,000 | $10,230 | $9,300 | $10,100 | $11,225 | $14,080 | $13,850 | ||||||
| 1st | $14,600 | $11,590 | $9,730 | $10,100 | $12,225 | $14,080 | $13,850 | ||||||
| 2nd | $14,600 | $11,590 | $9,730 | $10,100 | $13,835 | $14,080 | $13,850 | ||||||
| 3rd | $14,600 | $13,400 | $11,180 | $10,100 | $13,835 | $14,335 | $13,850 | ||||||
| 4th | $14,600 | $13,400 | $11,180 | $10,500 | $13,835 | $14,335 | $13,850 | ||||||
| 5th | $14,600 | $13,450 | $11,180 | $10,500 | $13,835 | $14,335 | $13,850 | ||||||
| 6th | TBD | $15,440 | $12,600 | $10,500 | $15,035 | $14,750 | $14,525 | ||||||
| 7th | TBD | $15,440 | $12,600 | $12,150 | $15,035 | $14,750 | $14,525 | ||||||
| 8th | TBD | $15,590 | $12,600 | $12,300 | $15,035 | $14,900 | $14,675 | ||||||
| Family (Yearly) | $1,300 | $1,800 | $2,100 | $1,375 | $1,060 | $1,375 | $800 | ||||||
| Family (Once) | $7,500 | $1,500 | $0 | $750/$300 | $3,200 | $7,000 | $7,000 |
| Frisch | HAFTR | HALB | JEC | JKHA | Maayanot | M. Aaron | |||||||
| 9th | $22,750 | $19,950 | $17,750 | $15,000 | $19,925 | $20,600 | $17,375 | ||||||
| 10th | $22,750 | $21,490 | $17,750 | $14,600 | $19,925 | $20,600 | $17,375 | ||||||
| 11th | $22,750 | $21,490 | $17,750 | $14,600 | $19,925 | $20,600 | $17,375 | ||||||
| 12th | $22,900 | $21,590 | $17,750 | $14,850 | $20,225 | $20,600 | $17,375 | ||||||
| Family (Yearly) | $750 | $1,800 | $2,100 | $1,375 | $1,060 | $625 | $750 | ||||||
| Family (Once) | $5,000 | $1,500 | $0 | $750/$300 | $3,200 | $0 | $0 |
What I found most interesting is that there isn't that much of a difference (in most cases) in price between yeshivas regardless of how "fancy" the facilities supposedly are, how "wealthy" the communities supposedly are, or how "superior" the education supposedly is. Though the biggest differences appear for high school; elementary school is pretty similar across the board.
Thursday, January 14, 2010
What Are The Goals Of Yeshiva Education?
In order to solve a problem, it is often useful to take a step back and see the forest for the trees. Focusing too intently on the details of the problem can make one lose sight of what exactly is the problem itself. Obviously, yeshiva tuition is far too expensive for the vast majority of parents who send their children to yeshiva. But, before we examine various cost saving measures or start finger pointing, it is important to consider and ask ourselves: Why do we send our children to yeshiva in the first place? In other words, what are the goals of yeshiva education? What are we hoping to gain or accomplish? I believe that the answers to these questions are critical to how we approach the problem. In particular, I believe that part of the problem is that parents have vastly different goals and therefore cannot find consensus on a solution.
In no particular order, below is a list of 40 "aspirational" goals often cited for the Modern Orthodox yeshiva system (Note that some are likely not fulfilled by any yeshiva. Also note that I chose 40 to focus on the most important). In a subsequent post I will look at how well my yeshiva education fulfilled these goals as well as whether these goals are reasonable given the current crisis.
Goals of a Modern Orthodox Yeshiva Education
1) Provide religious Judaic studies
2) Ensure that children remain frum
3) Teach HOW to learn
4) Teach Hebrew language skills
5) Teach practical halacha
6) Teach davening skills and the meaning of the prayers
7) Make frumkeit (and Judaism) interesting and engaging
8) Inspire children to be active in Jewish life
9) Create a love of Israel
10) Teach that we should love all Jews regardless of affiliation or practice
11) Teach (and teach by example) midot and how a Jew should behave
12) Impart a memorable and lasting body of Torah knowledge
13) Learn significant portions of Torah, Neviim, and Ketuvim
14) Become versed in gemara learning
15) Become familiar with "big name" commentaries and "famous" interpretations
16) Learn to bench and say brachot
17) Be immersed in a Jewish environment
18) Learn Jewish history
19) Provide secular English studies
20) Ensure students earn top SAT scores
21) Ensure a large percentage of kids go Ivy League or equivalent universities
22) Ensure a large percentage of kids go to YU or Stern
23) Ensure a large percentage of kids go to extra yeshiva study in Israel
24) Provide a large number of AP courses
25) Provide a large number of extracurricular groups and activities
26) Have top-notch computer labs
27) Have top-notch science labs
28) Have accredited teachers with advanced degrees in their field
29) Have large gyms and other sports and exercise related fields, courts, tracks, etc.
30) Have kosher cafeterias and/or lunch programs
31) Provide excellent math and science education
32) Provide excellent American and world history and social studies education
33) Teach strong English language and grammar skills
34) Educate children so they are well-versed in English literature
35) Separate children from non-Jews
36) Ensure children will not intermarry
37) Ensure proper separation of the sexes (even if the school is co-ed)
38) Help create a "yeshiva culture" that unites frum Jews
39) Create bonds with rabbis and classmates that last a lifetime
40) Inspire children to consider aliyah when older
In no particular order, below is a list of 40 "aspirational" goals often cited for the Modern Orthodox yeshiva system (Note that some are likely not fulfilled by any yeshiva. Also note that I chose 40 to focus on the most important). In a subsequent post I will look at how well my yeshiva education fulfilled these goals as well as whether these goals are reasonable given the current crisis.
Goals of a Modern Orthodox Yeshiva Education
1) Provide religious Judaic studies
2) Ensure that children remain frum
3) Teach HOW to learn
4) Teach Hebrew language skills
5) Teach practical halacha
6) Teach davening skills and the meaning of the prayers
7) Make frumkeit (and Judaism) interesting and engaging
8) Inspire children to be active in Jewish life
9) Create a love of Israel
10) Teach that we should love all Jews regardless of affiliation or practice
11) Teach (and teach by example) midot and how a Jew should behave
12) Impart a memorable and lasting body of Torah knowledge
13) Learn significant portions of Torah, Neviim, and Ketuvim
14) Become versed in gemara learning
15) Become familiar with "big name" commentaries and "famous" interpretations
16) Learn to bench and say brachot
17) Be immersed in a Jewish environment
18) Learn Jewish history
19) Provide secular English studies
20) Ensure students earn top SAT scores
21) Ensure a large percentage of kids go Ivy League or equivalent universities
22) Ensure a large percentage of kids go to YU or Stern
23) Ensure a large percentage of kids go to extra yeshiva study in Israel
24) Provide a large number of AP courses
25) Provide a large number of extracurricular groups and activities
26) Have top-notch computer labs
27) Have top-notch science labs
28) Have accredited teachers with advanced degrees in their field
29) Have large gyms and other sports and exercise related fields, courts, tracks, etc.
30) Have kosher cafeterias and/or lunch programs
31) Provide excellent math and science education
32) Provide excellent American and world history and social studies education
33) Teach strong English language and grammar skills
34) Educate children so they are well-versed in English literature
35) Separate children from non-Jews
36) Ensure children will not intermarry
37) Ensure proper separation of the sexes (even if the school is co-ed)
38) Help create a "yeshiva culture" that unites frum Jews
39) Create bonds with rabbis and classmates that last a lifetime
40) Inspire children to consider aliyah when older
How Much Are (Some) Salaries Increasing Every Year?
While putting together other posts that are taking a lot longer than I anticipated, I thought I'd look at how much salaries increase. In particular, I thought I'd look at the salary for a lawyer at a "Big Law" law firm. I want to thank a friend of mine for suggesting the post and providing the data. Turns out "Big Law" has annual lockstep salary increases that are publicly available, which makes it amenable to analysis. It is also useful because "attorney" is frequently cited as an example of the kind of job one needs to have in the frum community to be able to afford yeshiva tuition.
Here is the raw data for 2009. According to my friend these numbers have been in a place for a few years, the only difference is that bonuses were "low" this year. However, he believes that, if anything, "normal" bonuses would slightly hurt the average increase as "normal" bonuses help younger associates more than older associates.
1st Year: $160,000 + $0 bonus
2nd Year: $170,000 + $7,500 bonus
3rd Year: $185,000 + $10,000 bonus
4th Year: $210,000 + $15,000 bonus
5th Year: $230,000 + $20,000 bonus
6th Year: $250,000 + $25,000 bonus
7th Year: $265,000 + $30,000 bonus
8th Year or higher: $280,000 + $30,000 bonus
If you calculate the average percentage increase, you get about a 10% increase. Given previous posts, if you are an attorney at a "Big Law" firm, congratulations! Your salary is increasing at a rate that is commensurate with yeshiva tuition yearly increases*.
* Caveat #1: This only applies to "Big Law" attorneys. If you weren't lucky enough to get onto law review and land one of these jobs, your salary is likely to be substantially less and your annual increases will also likely be less.
* Caveat #2: In order to get those bonuses and in order to keep your job, you must bill around 2,100 to 2,200 hours. That usually means being in the office around 10 or so hours a day on average. Factor in commuting and you're likely away from the house around 13-14+ hours a day. Factor in having to leave early on Fridays and Shabbat and you're probably in the office on many Sundays as well.
* Caveat #3: Also, keep in mind that just because your salary is increasing 10% a year, on average, doesn't mean your take home salary increases by that much. Your marginal tax rate is likely 33% federal and about 6% state. You're likely hit with the Alternative Minimum Tax as well.
* Caveat #4: Even if after all those taxes, your salary increase covers the annual rise in yeshiva tuition, this only helps you if you are currently able to keep up with yeshiva tuition AND you can absorb the increases that occur in tuition when your children advance from grade to grade. In particular, in most yeshivas the tuition bump from 8th grade to 9th grade is substantial.
Here is the raw data for 2009. According to my friend these numbers have been in a place for a few years, the only difference is that bonuses were "low" this year. However, he believes that, if anything, "normal" bonuses would slightly hurt the average increase as "normal" bonuses help younger associates more than older associates.
1st Year: $160,000 + $0 bonus
2nd Year: $170,000 + $7,500 bonus
3rd Year: $185,000 + $10,000 bonus
4th Year: $210,000 + $15,000 bonus
5th Year: $230,000 + $20,000 bonus
6th Year: $250,000 + $25,000 bonus
7th Year: $265,000 + $30,000 bonus
8th Year or higher: $280,000 + $30,000 bonus
If you calculate the average percentage increase, you get about a 10% increase. Given previous posts, if you are an attorney at a "Big Law" firm, congratulations! Your salary is increasing at a rate that is commensurate with yeshiva tuition yearly increases*.
* Caveat #1: This only applies to "Big Law" attorneys. If you weren't lucky enough to get onto law review and land one of these jobs, your salary is likely to be substantially less and your annual increases will also likely be less.
* Caveat #2: In order to get those bonuses and in order to keep your job, you must bill around 2,100 to 2,200 hours. That usually means being in the office around 10 or so hours a day on average. Factor in commuting and you're likely away from the house around 13-14+ hours a day. Factor in having to leave early on Fridays and Shabbat and you're probably in the office on many Sundays as well.
* Caveat #3: Also, keep in mind that just because your salary is increasing 10% a year, on average, doesn't mean your take home salary increases by that much. Your marginal tax rate is likely 33% federal and about 6% state. You're likely hit with the Alternative Minimum Tax as well.
* Caveat #4: Even if after all those taxes, your salary increase covers the annual rise in yeshiva tuition, this only helps you if you are currently able to keep up with yeshiva tuition AND you can absorb the increases that occur in tuition when your children advance from grade to grade. In particular, in most yeshivas the tuition bump from 8th grade to 9th grade is substantial.
Wednesday, January 13, 2010
How Much Is Tuition Going Up Every Year? (Frisch)
First the bad news: It seems I hit the jackpot with JKHA/RKYHS. They are the only school for which I have been able to find significant historic tuition data. It seems most schools have never posted this information in the past or were not technologically hip enough to have a website in the past. Another school (Moriah) actually designs its site in a way to prevent google and archiver websites from accessing the tuition data (not sure if this is done purposefully or not).
Now, the good news: I found some data for Frisch, which I will post below. Another piece of good news, is that it seems that more and more yeshivas are posting their tuition data online, many for seemingly the first time in 2009-2010 (though not nearly enough are doing so). I will likely put together another post at some point comparing tuition data from a range of schools. If anyone out there should have tuition data or can point me to where to access it, please let me know.
Data is accessible here:
2006-2007, 2007-2008, 2008-2009, 2009-2010.
Here's the raw data:
In addition, every year there is a per family charge of $750. Finally, there is $5,000 payable to Frisch for a Building Fund ($2,500) and a Capital Fund ($2,500), which is one-time, per family. There is also a $150 "graduation fee" for 12th graders. These numbers have not changed since 2006-2007.
Thus, the year to year increases are:
So, at least for the period over which data is available, Frisch has had annual increases of 8.81% if you count the last year in which tuition "only" went up 2.71%. More likely (and I imagine more data would prove this), Frisch increases their tuition 11.86% every year.
Now, the good news: I found some data for Frisch, which I will post below. Another piece of good news, is that it seems that more and more yeshivas are posting their tuition data online, many for seemingly the first time in 2009-2010 (though not nearly enough are doing so). I will likely put together another post at some point comparing tuition data from a range of schools. If anyone out there should have tuition data or can point me to where to access it, please let me know.
Data is accessible here:
2006-2007, 2007-2008, 2008-2009, 2009-2010.
Here's the raw data:
| 2006-2007 | 2007-2008 | 2008-2009 | 2009-2010 | ||||
| 9th-12th | $17,700 | $19,800 | $22,150 | $22,750 |
Thus, the year to year increases are:
| 2006-2007 | to | 2007-2008 | to | 2008-2009 | to | 2009-2010 | |
| 9th-12th | 11.86% | 11.87% | 2.71% |
So, at least for the period over which data is available, Frisch has had annual increases of 8.81% if you count the last year in which tuition "only" went up 2.71%. More likely (and I imagine more data would prove this), Frisch increases their tuition 11.86% every year.
Tuesday, January 12, 2010
How Much Is Tuition Going Up Every Year? (JKHA/RKYHS Part 3)
In my previous post, fordeval raised an important point in the comments. Fordeval noted that the rate that tuition increases every year is only important if it is higher than the rate that salaries are increasing every year. This comment inspired me to do some digging to try to figure out the average percentage increase in yeshiva tuition. Doing this proved a lot harder than I initially anticipated. Yeshivas generally hold their tuition cards close to their chests and even those that do post their tuition online, will not release historical tuition data.
However, using the magic of the Internet, I have been able to locate actual historical tuition data for JKHA and RKYHS. Before I begin, here are links to all the raw data:
JKHA 1998-1999, JKHA 2000-2001, JKHA 2001-2002, JKHA 2002-2003, JKHA 2003-2004, JKHA 2004-2005, JKHA 2009-2010
RKYHS 1998-1999, RKYHS 2000-2001, RKYHS 2002-2003, RKYHS 2003-2004, RKYHS 2004-2005, RKYHS 2005-2006, RKYHS 2007-2008, RKYHS 2008-2009, RKYHS 2009-2010
The Process:
Finding all of this data involved several hours of work hunting through thousands of documents in the Internet Archive. I'm not pointing this out to toot my own horn, but to illustrate the fact that the lack of transparency from our schools makes it incredibly difficult for the public to understand the problem let alone try to tackle it.
Despite my best research efforts, the following data is missing - either I couldn't find it, it was never available online, or the Archive didn't have a record of it: JKHA years 1999-2000, 2005-2006, 2006-2007, 2007-2008, and 2008-2009 and RKYHS years 1999-2000, 2001-2002, 2006-2007, and 2008-2009.
In order to fill in the missing data, I did the following: JKHA 1999-2000 and RKYHS 1999-2000, 2001-2002, and 2006-2007 all had real data points for the prior year and the following year. Therefore, I averaged the prior and following years to arrive at an estimate for tuition values. For JKHA 2008-2009 and RKYHS 2008-2009, I was able to fill in actual tuition amounts as the 2009-2010 tuition page notes that tuition for 2009-2010 is $200 less for every grade than the 2008-2009 values. Finally, for JKHA 2005-2006, 2006-2007, and 2007-2008 I did the following. I averaged 2004-2005 and 2008-2009 to get an estimated value for 2006-2007. I then averaged 2004-2005 and 2006-2007 to get an estimated value for 2005-2006 and I averaged 2006-2007 and 2008-2009 to get an estimated value for 2007-2008.
One thing I noticed when going through the data is that you can't compare apples to apples unless you add together all of the fees to the tuition amount. Looking at tuition alone is meaningless. Furthermore, over about 12 years of data the fees have changed names and various fees have been added or removed over the years. Thus, the data below represents per student tuition and fees.
Another interesting point is that "per family" charges haven't changed much over the years (or year to year). The Parent Teacher Association Fee has gone from $50 in 1998-1999 to $60 in 2009-2010. The Dinner Journal Ad Fee has gone from $600 in 1998-1999 to $1,000 in 2009-2010. The Bond/Building Fund has gone from $2,500 in 1998-1999 to $3,200 in 2009-2010. However, it seems that starting in 2005-2006 this fee was no longer returned to the family once all of their children were out of the school. Previously, it was explicitly stated that this amount would be returned to the family. Note that the numbers below are "Per student" only. A "Per family" amount has to be added as well.
Note: These tables are difficult to do in Blogger. There are supposed to be 3 tables. The first has years 1998-1999 through 2003-2004. The second has 2004-2005 through 2008-2009. And the last has only 2009-2010.
Interesting points:
1) In a little over 10 years, Pre-K tuition has nearly doubled from $6,000 to $11,225. 12th grade tuition has gone up nearly 2.5 times from $8,400 to $20,225.
2) In the 12 years worth of data, 2009-2010 is the ONLY year that tuition went down. Other than this, only Pre-K and K went down a bit in 2004-2005.
So, by what percentage does tuition go up every year? Well, the answer depends on whether you're talking about Pre-K through 8th grade or 9th grade through 12th grade. Here's the raw data:
Note: These tables are difficult to do in Blogger. There are supposed to be 4 tables. The first table has increases for 1998-1999 through 2001-2002. The second table has increases for 2001-2002 through 2004-2005. The third table has increases for 2004-2005 through 2007-2008. The last table has increases for 2008-2009 through 2009-2010.
For the entire data range, this amounts to an average 6.79% year on year increase for Pre-K to 8th. However, if you don't count the last year in which tuition went down it is a 7.61% yearly increase. For 9th to 12th grade it is 8.31% for the whole data range and 9.24% without the last year.
What is most amazing to me is that in my previous post, I went up to a 6% yearly increase to find out what tuition for a family of 4 would be in 2022-2023. I thought it was ridiculous to go any higher than that and that I would be called out for being "sensationalistic." It turns out, if the trend continues and this year is an aberration, a mere "blip" from standard tuition increases, 6% is too low.
However, using the magic of the Internet, I have been able to locate actual historical tuition data for JKHA and RKYHS. Before I begin, here are links to all the raw data:
JKHA 1998-1999, JKHA 2000-2001, JKHA 2001-2002, JKHA 2002-2003, JKHA 2003-2004, JKHA 2004-2005, JKHA 2009-2010
RKYHS 1998-1999, RKYHS 2000-2001, RKYHS 2002-2003, RKYHS 2003-2004, RKYHS 2004-2005, RKYHS 2005-2006, RKYHS 2007-2008, RKYHS 2008-2009, RKYHS 2009-2010
The Process:
Finding all of this data involved several hours of work hunting through thousands of documents in the Internet Archive. I'm not pointing this out to toot my own horn, but to illustrate the fact that the lack of transparency from our schools makes it incredibly difficult for the public to understand the problem let alone try to tackle it.
Despite my best research efforts, the following data is missing - either I couldn't find it, it was never available online, or the Archive didn't have a record of it: JKHA years 1999-2000, 2005-2006, 2006-2007, 2007-2008, and 2008-2009 and RKYHS years 1999-2000, 2001-2002, 2006-2007, and 2008-2009.
In order to fill in the missing data, I did the following: JKHA 1999-2000 and RKYHS 1999-2000, 2001-2002, and 2006-2007 all had real data points for the prior year and the following year. Therefore, I averaged the prior and following years to arrive at an estimate for tuition values. For JKHA 2008-2009 and RKYHS 2008-2009, I was able to fill in actual tuition amounts as the 2009-2010 tuition page notes that tuition for 2009-2010 is $200 less for every grade than the 2008-2009 values. Finally, for JKHA 2005-2006, 2006-2007, and 2007-2008 I did the following. I averaged 2004-2005 and 2008-2009 to get an estimated value for 2006-2007. I then averaged 2004-2005 and 2006-2007 to get an estimated value for 2005-2006 and I averaged 2006-2007 and 2008-2009 to get an estimated value for 2007-2008.
One thing I noticed when going through the data is that you can't compare apples to apples unless you add together all of the fees to the tuition amount. Looking at tuition alone is meaningless. Furthermore, over about 12 years of data the fees have changed names and various fees have been added or removed over the years. Thus, the data below represents per student tuition and fees.
Another interesting point is that "per family" charges haven't changed much over the years (or year to year). The Parent Teacher Association Fee has gone from $50 in 1998-1999 to $60 in 2009-2010. The Dinner Journal Ad Fee has gone from $600 in 1998-1999 to $1,000 in 2009-2010. The Bond/Building Fund has gone from $2,500 in 1998-1999 to $3,200 in 2009-2010. However, it seems that starting in 2005-2006 this fee was no longer returned to the family once all of their children were out of the school. Previously, it was explicitly stated that this amount would be returned to the family. Note that the numbers below are "Per student" only. A "Per family" amount has to be added as well.
| 1998-1999 | 1999-2000 | 2000-2001 | 2001-2002 | 2002-2003 | 2003-2004 | ||||||
| Pre-K | $6,000 | $6,700 | $7,400 | $8,000 | $8,600 | $9,155 | |||||
| K | $6,100 | $6,800 | $7,500 | $8,000 | $8,600 | $8,855 | |||||
| 1st | $6,100 | $6,800 | $7,500 | $8,200 | $8,800 | $9,035 | |||||
| 2nd | $6,500 | $7,200 | $7,900 | $8,600 | $9,200 | $9,735 | |||||
| 3rd | $6,500 | $7,200 | $7,900 | $8,600 | $9,200 | $9,735 | |||||
| 4th | $6,750 | $7,450 | $8,150 | $8,850 | $9,450 | $9,985 | |||||
| 5th | $6,750 | $7,450 | $8,150 | $8,850 | $9,450 | $9,985 | |||||
| 6th | $6,950 | $7,675 | $8,400 | $9,300 | $10,050 | $10,805 | |||||
| 7th | $7,000 | $7,725 | $8,450 | $9,350 | $10,100 | $10,885 | |||||
| 8th | $7,100 | $7,825 | $8,550 | $9,450 | $10,200 | $11,015 | |||||
| 9th | $8,400 | $9,923 | $11,445 | $12,510 | $13,575 | $14,575 | |||||
| 10th | $8,400 | $9,923 | $11,445 | $12,510 | $13,575 | $14,575 | |||||
| 11th | $8,400 | $9,923 | $11,445 | $12,510 | $13,575 | $14,575 | |||||
| 12th | $8,400 | $9,923 | $11,445 | $12,600 | $13,755 | $14,755 |
| 2004-2005 | 2005-2006 | 2006-2007 | 2007-2008 | 2008-2009 | |||||
| Pre-K | $9,055 | $9,648 | $10,240 | $10,833 | $11,425 | ||||
| K | $8,755 | $9,423 | $10,090 | $10,758 | $11,425 | ||||
| 1st | $9,435 | $10,183 | $10,930 | $11,678 | $12,425 | ||||
| 2nd | $10,135 | $11,110 | $12,085 | $13,060 | $14,035 | ||||
| 3rd | $10,135 | $11,110 | $12,085 | $13,060 | $14,035 | ||||
| 4th | $10,385 | $11,298 | $12,210 | $13,123 | $14,035 | ||||
| 5th | $10,385 | $11,298 | $12,210 | $13,123 | $14,035 | ||||
| 6th | $11,205 | $12,213 | $13,220 | $14,228 | $15,235 | ||||
| 7th | $11,285 | $12,273 | $13,260 | $14,248 | $15,235 | ||||
| 8th | $11,415 | $12,370 | $13,325 | $14,280 | $15,235 | ||||
| 9th | $15,225 | $16,100 | $17,525 | $18,950 | $20,125 | ||||
| 10th | $15,225 | $16,100 | $17,525 | $18,950 | $20,125 | ||||
| 11th | $15,225 | $16,100 | $17,525 | $18,950 | $20,125 | ||||
| 12th | $15,405 | $16,400 | $17,825 | $19,250 | $20,425 |
| 2009-2010 | |
| Pre-K | $11,225 |
| K | $11,225 |
| 1st | $12,225 |
| 2nd | $13,835 |
| 3rd | $13,835 |
| 4th | $13,835 |
| 5th | $13,835 |
| 6th | $15,035 |
| 7th | $15,035 |
| 8th | $15,035 |
| 9th | $19,925 |
| 10th | $19,925 |
| 11th | $19,925 |
| 12th | $20,225 |
Note: These tables are difficult to do in Blogger. There are supposed to be 3 tables. The first has years 1998-1999 through 2003-2004. The second has 2004-2005 through 2008-2009. And the last has only 2009-2010.
Interesting points:
1) In a little over 10 years, Pre-K tuition has nearly doubled from $6,000 to $11,225. 12th grade tuition has gone up nearly 2.5 times from $8,400 to $20,225.
2) In the 12 years worth of data, 2009-2010 is the ONLY year that tuition went down. Other than this, only Pre-K and K went down a bit in 2004-2005.
So, by what percentage does tuition go up every year? Well, the answer depends on whether you're talking about Pre-K through 8th grade or 9th grade through 12th grade. Here's the raw data:
| 1998-1999 | to | 1999-2000 | to | 2000-2001 | to | 2001-2002 | |
| Pre-K - 8th | 10.79% | 9.74% | 9.09% | ||||
| 9th - 12th | 18.13% | 15.34% | 9.50% |
| 2001-2002 | to | 2002-2003 | to | 2003-2004 | to | 2004-2005 | |
| Pre-K - 8th | 7.39% | 5.83% | 2.94% | ||||
| 9th - 12th | 8.68% | 7.34% | 4.45% |
| 2004-2005 | to | 2005-2006 | to | 2006-2007 | to | 2007-2008 | |
| Pre-K - 8th | 8.50% | 7.83% | 7.26% | ||||
| 9th - 12th | 5.93% | 8.81% | 8.10% |
| 2007-2008 | to | 2008-2009 | to | 2009-2010 | |
| Pre-K - 8th | 6.76% | -1.47% | |||
| 9th - 12th | 6.18% | -0.99% |
Note: These tables are difficult to do in Blogger. There are supposed to be 4 tables. The first table has increases for 1998-1999 through 2001-2002. The second table has increases for 2001-2002 through 2004-2005. The third table has increases for 2004-2005 through 2007-2008. The last table has increases for 2008-2009 through 2009-2010.
For the entire data range, this amounts to an average 6.79% year on year increase for Pre-K to 8th. However, if you don't count the last year in which tuition went down it is a 7.61% yearly increase. For 9th to 12th grade it is 8.31% for the whole data range and 9.24% without the last year.
What is most amazing to me is that in my previous post, I went up to a 6% yearly increase to find out what tuition for a family of 4 would be in 2022-2023. I thought it was ridiculous to go any higher than that and that I would be called out for being "sensationalistic." It turns out, if the trend continues and this year is an aberration, a mere "blip" from standard tuition increases, 6% is too low.
Friday, January 8, 2010
So What's It Gonna Cost Me? (JKHA/RKYHS - Part 2)
In the previous post, I showed that if a family today had 4 children in 12th, 10th, 8th, and 6th grades in JKHA/RKYHS, their total tuition bill would be $71,280. But, what about that parent whose eldest child is currently in Pre-K for the 2009-2010 school year and is "only" paying $12,285? How much can they expect to pay in the 2022-2023 school year when their children are in 12th, 10th, 8th, and 6th grades?
If tuition and all other costs go up 0% year on year: $71,280
If tuition and all other costs go up 1% year on year: $81,123
If tuition and all other costs go up 2% year on year: $92,208
If tuition and all other costs go up 3% year on year: $104,677
If tuition and all other costs go up 4% year on year: $118,686
If tuition and all other costs go up 5% year on year: $134,409
If tuition and all other costs go up 6% year on year: $152,035
I don't know which number is more accurate, but I feel it's closer to 4%-5%. I'd be interested in hearing from tuition paying parents what their average year on year increases have been.
If tuition and all other costs go up 0% year on year: $71,280
If tuition and all other costs go up 1% year on year: $81,123
If tuition and all other costs go up 2% year on year: $92,208
If tuition and all other costs go up 3% year on year: $104,677
If tuition and all other costs go up 4% year on year: $118,686
If tuition and all other costs go up 5% year on year: $134,409
If tuition and all other costs go up 6% year on year: $152,035
I don't know which number is more accurate, but I feel it's closer to 4%-5%. I'd be interested in hearing from tuition paying parents what their average year on year increases have been.
So What's It Gonna Cost Me? (JKHA/RKYHS - Part 1)
The first school I'm going to look at is the Joseph Kushner Hebrew Academy and Rae Kushner Yeshiva High School which is located in Livingston, NJ. The information in this post is gleaned from here. There are two reasons I am looking at this school first. 1) It is one of the few schools I know of where, if a parent were OK with co-ed yeshivas, they could place all their children in one school from Pre-K through 12th grade and thereby save on "per family" costs; and 2) They actually make this information publicly available.
My wife and I would like to have 4 children. Furthermore, this seems to be a fairly standard frum family size. I'm going to assume that the children are all 2 grades apart (again, pretty standard).
What I'd like to show is what it would cost a family depending on what grades the children are in all the way from the oldest being in Pre-K, to the oldest being in 12th grade (with siblings in 10th, 8th, and 6th grades).
Per Child Charges
Registration fee - $500 (we'll assume the family takes advantage of "early registration")
Pre-K and K - $10,725
Grades 1 - $11,725
Grades 2, 3, 4 and 5 - $13,335
Grades 6, 7 and 8 - $14,535
Grades 9, 10 and 11 - $19,425
Grade 12 - $19,725
Per Family Charges
PTA - $60
Dinner Journal - $1,000
One Time Charge
Building Fund - $3,200 (I will include this separately since it is one-time only)
Sibling Discounts (Pre-K through 8 only - I assume this means all kids must be in Pre-K through 8 and that you save $500 on child #3 and $1,000 on child #4 for a maximum total saving of $1,500 if all 4 kids are Pre-K through 8 - even if not 100% correct, this is a pittance)
$500 for 3rd child
$1,000 for 4th child
$2,000 for 5th + child
Costs (Note that $3,200 for the building fund is due in addition to the figures below)
P - $12,285
K - $12,285
1 & P - $24,510
2 & K - $26,120
3 & 1 & P - $37,845
4 & 2 & K - $39,455
5 & 3 & 1 & P - $50,680
6 & 4 & 2 & K - $53,490
7 & 5 & 3 & 1 - $54,490
8 & 6 & 4 & 2 - $57,300
9 & 7 & 5 & 3 - $63,190
10 & 8 & 6 & 4 - $64,390
11 & 9 & 7 & 5 - $69,780
12 & 10 & 8 & 6 - $71,280
So there you have it. Without scholarship, given today's numbers, a family with one child in Pre-K will owe $12,285 (plus building fund) and a family with children in 12th, 10th, 8th, and 6th grades will owe $71,280 (plus building fund if not already paid).
In my next post I will analyze these numbers in terms of rising tuition costs to calculate how much that family with the eldest child in Pre-K can expect to pay when that child is in 12th grade and their siblings are in 10th, 8th, and 6th.
My wife and I would like to have 4 children. Furthermore, this seems to be a fairly standard frum family size. I'm going to assume that the children are all 2 grades apart (again, pretty standard).
What I'd like to show is what it would cost a family depending on what grades the children are in all the way from the oldest being in Pre-K, to the oldest being in 12th grade (with siblings in 10th, 8th, and 6th grades).
Per Child Charges
Registration fee - $500 (we'll assume the family takes advantage of "early registration")
Pre-K and K - $10,725
Grades 1 - $11,725
Grades 2, 3, 4 and 5 - $13,335
Grades 6, 7 and 8 - $14,535
Grades 9, 10 and 11 - $19,425
Grade 12 - $19,725
Per Family Charges
PTA - $60
Dinner Journal - $1,000
One Time Charge
Building Fund - $3,200 (I will include this separately since it is one-time only)
Sibling Discounts (Pre-K through 8 only - I assume this means all kids must be in Pre-K through 8 and that you save $500 on child #3 and $1,000 on child #4 for a maximum total saving of $1,500 if all 4 kids are Pre-K through 8 - even if not 100% correct, this is a pittance)
$500 for 3rd child
$1,000 for 4th child
$2,000 for 5th + child
Costs (Note that $3,200 for the building fund is due in addition to the figures below)
P - $12,285
K - $12,285
1 & P - $24,510
2 & K - $26,120
3 & 1 & P - $37,845
4 & 2 & K - $39,455
5 & 3 & 1 & P - $50,680
6 & 4 & 2 & K - $53,490
7 & 5 & 3 & 1 - $54,490
8 & 6 & 4 & 2 - $57,300
9 & 7 & 5 & 3 - $63,190
10 & 8 & 6 & 4 - $64,390
11 & 9 & 7 & 5 - $69,780
12 & 10 & 8 & 6 - $71,280
So there you have it. Without scholarship, given today's numbers, a family with one child in Pre-K will owe $12,285 (plus building fund) and a family with children in 12th, 10th, 8th, and 6th grades will owe $71,280 (plus building fund if not already paid).
In my next post I will analyze these numbers in terms of rising tuition costs to calculate how much that family with the eldest child in Pre-K can expect to pay when that child is in 12th grade and their siblings are in 10th, 8th, and 6th.
Thursday, January 7, 2010
So What's It Gonna Cost Me? (Introduction)
Part of understanding the tuition crisis is understanding exactly what tuition costs. For most schools this is literally impossible unless you can prove you have children that you are ready and willing to enroll. Friends of mine have young children that will be "of age" in another 2 or so years and have been trying to figure out how much tuition is going to cost them. The answers they have received generally fall into two categories:
1) Don't worry about it. We'll work with you to come up with a number you can afford.
2) Fill out an application with the registration fee of several hundred dollars and we'll talk.
Another difficulty in figuring out the "true cost" is that everyone you talk to, assuming they'll be honest with you, reports back a different number! Two families with children in the same grades each pay vastly different amounts thus obscuring what tuition actually costs.
Additionally, yeshiva tuition is broken down into so many different parts that it's not enough to merely know what the "tuition" is. You need to know what the registration fee is, what the dinner journal fee is, what the building fund is, what the scrip amount is, and lots of other little fees and add ons.
All this makes it impossible for a family to adequately plan for what yeshiva tuition is going to cost them beyond "a lot."
Of course some schools actually do provide this data on their websites and I hope to begin a small series explaining the different costs and calculating how much a typical family of four would have to pay if all kids were in that school. I would note that this is the most economical option for the family. If the children are in different schools, the parents subject themselves to having to pay far more "per family" charges to each school. As this series will demonstrate, these "per family" charges can be substantial.
1) Don't worry about it. We'll work with you to come up with a number you can afford.
2) Fill out an application with the registration fee of several hundred dollars and we'll talk.
Another difficulty in figuring out the "true cost" is that everyone you talk to, assuming they'll be honest with you, reports back a different number! Two families with children in the same grades each pay vastly different amounts thus obscuring what tuition actually costs.
Additionally, yeshiva tuition is broken down into so many different parts that it's not enough to merely know what the "tuition" is. You need to know what the registration fee is, what the dinner journal fee is, what the building fund is, what the scrip amount is, and lots of other little fees and add ons.
All this makes it impossible for a family to adequately plan for what yeshiva tuition is going to cost them beyond "a lot."
Of course some schools actually do provide this data on their websites and I hope to begin a small series explaining the different costs and calculating how much a typical family of four would have to pay if all kids were in that school. I would note that this is the most economical option for the family. If the children are in different schools, the parents subject themselves to having to pay far more "per family" charges to each school. As this series will demonstrate, these "per family" charges can be substantial.
How My Sibling And I Are Paying For Yeshiva Even Though We Don't Have Kids
By the time my siblings and I reached college, my parents were completely tapped out financially and were unable to help us pay college tuition. Actually, I take that back, they were able to help out - just not very much. My parents paid a portion of room and board, but nothing else.
In fact, and ironically, us going from yeshiva to college was the best thing that ever happened, financially, for my parents. Their "tuition cost per child" went down about 50%, which was a number far more affordable for them. The main difference? FAFSA is available for college, but not yeshiva. Student loans are available for college, but not for yeshiva. Merit-based scholarships are available for college, but not for yeshiva.
The downside of course is that my siblings and I were saddled by huge student loan debts. Each of us graduated college with approximately $90K in student loan debt, almost all of which is private loans and therefore subject to higher interest rates which starts accruing immediately, and cannot be "locked in." One of my siblings who is in graduate school will likely have an additional $200K+ in student loans by the time graduation arrives.
The point is, that yeshiva tuition has a multi-generational effect. It affects the parents that are paying tuition for many years after their last child has left yeshiva. And, it also affects those who have attended yeshiva by saddling them with debt before they even have children.
The situation today is dramatically different from when I was younger and in yeshiva. Although my grandparents had no disposable income to help my parents pay tuition, many kids I grew up with did have grandparents who chipped in a bit. These grandparents were able to do so because they and their children either didn't attend yeshiva or the cost was far lower and more affordable. Today's grandparents are likely still paying off their own children's yeshiva tuition in the form of home equity loans and credit card debt. Or, perhaps they are being asked to shell out tens of thousands for weddings (this is another difference, many people my parents' generation were married for a few hundred dollars). Even if children wanted to ask their parents to help pay for the grandchildren's yeshiva tuition, many grandparents are just not able to do so. It is yet another factor that makes the current crisis so acute.
In fact, and ironically, us going from yeshiva to college was the best thing that ever happened, financially, for my parents. Their "tuition cost per child" went down about 50%, which was a number far more affordable for them. The main difference? FAFSA is available for college, but not yeshiva. Student loans are available for college, but not for yeshiva. Merit-based scholarships are available for college, but not for yeshiva.
The downside of course is that my siblings and I were saddled by huge student loan debts. Each of us graduated college with approximately $90K in student loan debt, almost all of which is private loans and therefore subject to higher interest rates which starts accruing immediately, and cannot be "locked in." One of my siblings who is in graduate school will likely have an additional $200K+ in student loans by the time graduation arrives.
The point is, that yeshiva tuition has a multi-generational effect. It affects the parents that are paying tuition for many years after their last child has left yeshiva. And, it also affects those who have attended yeshiva by saddling them with debt before they even have children.
The situation today is dramatically different from when I was younger and in yeshiva. Although my grandparents had no disposable income to help my parents pay tuition, many kids I grew up with did have grandparents who chipped in a bit. These grandparents were able to do so because they and their children either didn't attend yeshiva or the cost was far lower and more affordable. Today's grandparents are likely still paying off their own children's yeshiva tuition in the form of home equity loans and credit card debt. Or, perhaps they are being asked to shell out tens of thousands for weddings (this is another difference, many people my parents' generation were married for a few hundred dollars). Even if children wanted to ask their parents to help pay for the grandchildren's yeshiva tuition, many grandparents are just not able to do so. It is yet another factor that makes the current crisis so acute.
How My Parents Paid (And Are Still Paying) For Tuition
As mentioned before, sending me and my 2 siblings to yeshiva was an incredibly difficult decision for my parents. In the end, my parents' decision to send us to yeshiva was primarily based on a family they admired at shul before we were born. My parents were incredibly impressed by how well-behaved and respectful the family's children were. Over the course of a conversation my parents asked the family what the secret was. The answer? Yeshiva education (Side note: how many parents would say this today?). Based on that, the die was cast. My parents moved to an Orthodox community, even though at the time they were more conservative/conservadox, and vowed to send their future children to yeshiva.
One of the reasons the decision was so hard is that my parents had next to no money. My grandparents were immigrants and worked menial jobs to support their families. My father had a low-paying job and my mother became a stay at home mom in order to care for the children (though she returned to work when my youngest sibling entered Pre-K).
Since my parents couldn't afford tuition, my parents requested a scholarship. I don't know the exact process, and my parents don't remember either after so many years, but they remember that it was incredibly invasive and embarrassing. Apparently everything was scrutinized and everything was questioned. In the end, my parents received about $500 off tuition. They didn't bother reapplying in subsequent years.
In the end, my parents paid for yeshiva by borrowing against their house. Every year my parents would further extend their home equity loan by the balance of what was due for yeshiva tuition. This was done for nearly two decades. Thankfully, my parents had the good sense to not put yeshiva tuition on their credit cards or the situation would be far worse. Nonetheless, a 30 year mortgage for about $60K taken out about 30 years still has over $100K left and won't be paid off for another 10 or so years (and this with my parents accelerating the payment schedule). For reference, my youngest sibling was last in yeshiva about 6 years ago.
One of the reasons the decision was so hard is that my parents had next to no money. My grandparents were immigrants and worked menial jobs to support their families. My father had a low-paying job and my mother became a stay at home mom in order to care for the children (though she returned to work when my youngest sibling entered Pre-K).
Since my parents couldn't afford tuition, my parents requested a scholarship. I don't know the exact process, and my parents don't remember either after so many years, but they remember that it was incredibly invasive and embarrassing. Apparently everything was scrutinized and everything was questioned. In the end, my parents received about $500 off tuition. They didn't bother reapplying in subsequent years.
In the end, my parents paid for yeshiva by borrowing against their house. Every year my parents would further extend their home equity loan by the balance of what was due for yeshiva tuition. This was done for nearly two decades. Thankfully, my parents had the good sense to not put yeshiva tuition on their credit cards or the situation would be far worse. Nonetheless, a 30 year mortgage for about $60K taken out about 30 years still has over $100K left and won't be paid off for another 10 or so years (and this with my parents accelerating the payment schedule). For reference, my youngest sibling was last in yeshiva about 6 years ago.
Wednesday, January 6, 2010
A Call For Guest Posts
The yeshiva tuition issue is a BIG problem. If we're going to get anywhere on an issue of this magnitude, we all need to work together. We all need to be willing to not just speak up, but also to listen.
Aside from the scope of the problem, it also has many different sides. I think it would be to the entire Jewish community's benefit if we could all hear these different perspectives. Therefore, I am calling on communal rabbis, yeshiva administrators, yeshiva teachers and staff, parents on scholarship, parents paying full tuition, parents to be, and anyone else who would like to speak up and present an opinion to please consider guest posting here.
Please email me privately at tuitiontalk at gmail dot com or comment below with your contact information if you have any interest in guest posting. I promise to protect anonymity if that is your desire and will not post anything without receiving your prior approval.
Aside from the scope of the problem, it also has many different sides. I think it would be to the entire Jewish community's benefit if we could all hear these different perspectives. Therefore, I am calling on communal rabbis, yeshiva administrators, yeshiva teachers and staff, parents on scholarship, parents paying full tuition, parents to be, and anyone else who would like to speak up and present an opinion to please consider guest posting here.
Please email me privately at tuitiontalk at gmail dot com or comment below with your contact information if you have any interest in guest posting. I promise to protect anonymity if that is your desire and will not post anything without receiving your prior approval.
A Little About Me
First, a disclaimer: In the interest of being as open and honest as possible, I am posting anonymously. I don't want to curtail what I want to say about myself or about the yeshiva tuition situation and feel that this is best accomplished through anonymity. I am well aware that real change requires one to drop pseudonyms, but at this point I am not trying to change the world. I am merely trying to provide a forum and hope that something positive can come from the discussions of like-minded individuals.
I am a Modern Orthodox, Jewish male in his late 20's. I have been married for a few years to my beautiful wife. We come from similar backgrounds. Both of us went to Modern Orthodox yeshivas K-12. Neither one of us went to yeshiva in Israel. When each of us started yeshiva, our families were not frum. We didn't keep strictly kosher and we didn't keep Shabbat. We were sent to yeshiva because our parents wanted us to have a strong Jewish identity. In no small part, yeshiva education is chiefly responsible for our families (and us) being frum today.
However, because people have different perceptions and ideas of "frumkeit" I feel the need to clarify. My wife and I have found a level of frumkeit that works for us. Although I hate to focus on external expressions of frumkeit, we are both fully shomer Shabbat and kashrut. We keep mikvah. My wife wears pants and only covers her hair in shul (and then only with a hat with her hair sticking out). I only attend minyan on Shabbat and generally don't daven daily. Normally I wouldn't think this is too important (and I don't like to characterize people in this way), but it gives some background that is likely to be relevant to understanding my thoughts and feelings about yeshiva.
My wife and I are now trying to start a family. We waited a couple of years in order to advance our careers, increase our salaries, and save money. Additionally, we wanted to buy a house before having kids, which we thankfully were able to do recently. Thank God, we both make very good salaries - each above 6 figures. However, this requires both of us to be working 12+ hour days. If you factor in commuting, we are each out of the house around 15 or so hours a day. Mind you I am not complaining about our schedules. We both knew exactly what we were getting into and chose these careers and wouldn't change a thing. Nonetheless, we know that, at least for my wife, such hours are simply unsustainable once we have kids. Furthermore, I don't want to be the kind of father who only gets to see his kids on the weekend. We haven't made any decisions on this front yet, but I expect the issue to become more and more urgent once we know we're going to have a baby.
Both of us are very frugal and I, at least, am anal retentive about planning and budgeting. By frugal, I mean that we spend far below our means and save as much as possible. In the years we've been married we've only been on one real vacation, our honeymoon. We don't buy each other gifts. We drive a car that is over 10 years old. We wait for sales. In other words, while we don't live like paupers, we don't live like we're wealthy either. Our only real indulgence, if you can call it that, is that we bought a nice house, though still one that is below our purchasing power (part of this decision was based on future yeshiva tuition costs and not wanting to over-extend ourselves).
Ideally, I think we would like to send our future children to yeshiva. However, we both worry that we will not be able to given the current prices of yeshivas and the dramatic increases in tuition prices that occur every year. Given our income, we definitely would not qualify for a scholarship (nor would I want to open my books and subject myself to others' scrutiny to try to get one). It is very important to both of us to not have to struggle financially. This is primarily due to the fact that my parents struggled terribly to put me and my siblings through yeshiva (and are still paying it off many years after my youngest sibling has been out of yeshiva) and because my wife's family is in dire financial straits. Thus, we both have direct experience with what financial woes can do to a family and shalom bayit and don't want to go through that ourselves.
More to come in future posts.
I am a Modern Orthodox, Jewish male in his late 20's. I have been married for a few years to my beautiful wife. We come from similar backgrounds. Both of us went to Modern Orthodox yeshivas K-12. Neither one of us went to yeshiva in Israel. When each of us started yeshiva, our families were not frum. We didn't keep strictly kosher and we didn't keep Shabbat. We were sent to yeshiva because our parents wanted us to have a strong Jewish identity. In no small part, yeshiva education is chiefly responsible for our families (and us) being frum today.
However, because people have different perceptions and ideas of "frumkeit" I feel the need to clarify. My wife and I have found a level of frumkeit that works for us. Although I hate to focus on external expressions of frumkeit, we are both fully shomer Shabbat and kashrut. We keep mikvah. My wife wears pants and only covers her hair in shul (and then only with a hat with her hair sticking out). I only attend minyan on Shabbat and generally don't daven daily. Normally I wouldn't think this is too important (and I don't like to characterize people in this way), but it gives some background that is likely to be relevant to understanding my thoughts and feelings about yeshiva.
My wife and I are now trying to start a family. We waited a couple of years in order to advance our careers, increase our salaries, and save money. Additionally, we wanted to buy a house before having kids, which we thankfully were able to do recently. Thank God, we both make very good salaries - each above 6 figures. However, this requires both of us to be working 12+ hour days. If you factor in commuting, we are each out of the house around 15 or so hours a day. Mind you I am not complaining about our schedules. We both knew exactly what we were getting into and chose these careers and wouldn't change a thing. Nonetheless, we know that, at least for my wife, such hours are simply unsustainable once we have kids. Furthermore, I don't want to be the kind of father who only gets to see his kids on the weekend. We haven't made any decisions on this front yet, but I expect the issue to become more and more urgent once we know we're going to have a baby.
Both of us are very frugal and I, at least, am anal retentive about planning and budgeting. By frugal, I mean that we spend far below our means and save as much as possible. In the years we've been married we've only been on one real vacation, our honeymoon. We don't buy each other gifts. We drive a car that is over 10 years old. We wait for sales. In other words, while we don't live like paupers, we don't live like we're wealthy either. Our only real indulgence, if you can call it that, is that we bought a nice house, though still one that is below our purchasing power (part of this decision was based on future yeshiva tuition costs and not wanting to over-extend ourselves).
Ideally, I think we would like to send our future children to yeshiva. However, we both worry that we will not be able to given the current prices of yeshivas and the dramatic increases in tuition prices that occur every year. Given our income, we definitely would not qualify for a scholarship (nor would I want to open my books and subject myself to others' scrutiny to try to get one). It is very important to both of us to not have to struggle financially. This is primarily due to the fact that my parents struggled terribly to put me and my siblings through yeshiva (and are still paying it off many years after my youngest sibling has been out of yeshiva) and because my wife's family is in dire financial straits. Thus, we both have direct experience with what financial woes can do to a family and shalom bayit and don't want to go through that ourselves.
More to come in future posts.
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